CUK board discussion

Author Comment

ned14

Member

Posts: 1

(3/20/03 3:20:40 pm)

Reply | Edit Niall replies

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Hi everyone,

I got pointed here by someone via email who felt I should say something. Needless to say, I felt quite hurt and angry after some of the nasty and personal comments made about me which in my view simply show their posters as immature and unpleasant people. You may say I am young and naive, but I know an @#%$ when I see one.

I prefer to stick with things more productive, and I hope replies to this message will be just that. Yes, the article was bolshy, yes it was designed to provoke discussion. However, some of you seem to have taken that I said some things I did not:

Point 1: I did not claim to be the fifth or whatever best programmer in the world. That is clearly impossible as "best" is a subjective term. I DID say I only knew of four maybe five other programmers who could properly trounce me, which is true. THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING. If you want to see a conversation I had with an established leader in the field, please see www.nedprod.com/Niall_stu...ation.html

Point 2: I have here over forty emails of support saying much the same as I - the IT market sucks right now, industry is doing nothing to help itself and its selfishness is hurting everyone. A further addition to this is just how bewildered newbie contractors are, how little information they have and while I think contractoruk.com is a wonderful site, its section on first timers could be better. That's why I undertook to write the article, rather than complain I decided to do the job myself. If only some of my critics in here would stop moaning and start doing, the world would be a better place.

Point 3: My virtual diary is a wonderful tool and filter. As soon as you see someone misquote it in order to further their point, you know exactly what you're dealing with. With respect to jobs, if an employer goes so far as to check the web for someone, they'll usually be right-minded enough to understand that there is a person behind every employee - and after reading the site, they will be in no doubt of exactly what they're getting - good and bad.

Some of you are obviously scared of such candour, and react by trying to attack it so you can feel dominant. I feel sorry for you, because your attacks say far more about you than I.

Point 4: No one in this board knows my programming skill. Those who have taken the time to look through my GPL and public domain stuff have some idea, but then they'd never have worked with me.

While my managers would call me difficult, I do work successfully in a team and indeed often have led within a team due to my ability to see big pictures well. People I have worked with in the past support this so I'm quite sure it's true.

If you search google groups for my name, you'll get plenty of my old work on Acorns. Please inform yourself before showing your cruelty and ignorance in future.

If Bryan permits, I should like to continue with a second and third parts to my story. Of course, this is dependant on getting a contract, but thankfully some contractors have been very helpful in running through my CV and pointing out things which they feel don't work. My thanks to them for their continued and constructive efforts.

If anyone makes a constructive point (including negative ones), I'll reply. I'll ignore anything attacking me personally.

Cheers,

Niall

SupremeSpod

Veteran *****

Posts: 1766

(3/20/03 3:25:48 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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We may say, you're a dreamer.

Also, have you considered pschiatric help with regards to your inability to differentiate between Women and Computers?

Also, mentioning that you take drugs on a website that mentions you by name and background is not conducive to long term career prospects.

Spod - In "Ever Helpful" mode!

p.s.

I am checking your rep out at Hull Uni as we speak!

FLEETWOOD1975

Veteran ****

Posts: 1405

(3/20/03 3:30:36 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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Niall,

I did Modern languages at Uni and cross-trained to computers on a 20-week crash course 13 years ago. I don't have a web-site, but I do have a life and a well-paid contract, two things you'll never have.

Love,

Fleetwood

NamesFacesPlaces

Veteran *****

Posts: 1652

(3/20/03 3:30:48 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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Niall, good to see you here to answer points.

Congratulations on your very successful article, which I believe is one of the most successful articles ever on this site.

What happened to the other articles in the series about the Emerging Threats to UK IT that you were going to do for NamesFacesPlaces?

Rediscover Old Workmates at NamesFacesPlaces

SupremeSpod

Veteran *****

Posts: 1767

(3/20/03 3:37:43 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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Quote:

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Thanks for your thoughtful note. Unfortunately I disagree with most of your suggestions (see below for details). But I don't way my disagreements to detract from my appreciation that you took the time to write in the first place.

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Spod - In "Thanks for writing" mode!

MarillionFan

Veteran ****

Posts: 790

(3/20/03 3:39:42 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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ROFL!

Joke Over.

AlexMSmith

Member

Posts: 9

(3/20/03 3:47:45 pm)

Reply Hey pikey

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Quote:

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What happened to the other articles in the series about the Emerging Threats to UK IT that you were going to do for NamesFacesPlaces?

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You nicked the first one, put your name on it and then sold it to ContractorUK as your own. Then denied ever knowing Niall when you came on here to join in the fun of slagging the poor guy off

Not surprising Niall thought twice about sending you another one.

NamesFacesPlaces

Veteran *****

Posts: 1654

(3/20/03 3:53:27 pm)

Reply Re: Hey pikey

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You seem to know a lot about it Alex. I sent it on to CUK as a NamesFacesPlaces article rather than a personal one, which it was. Even Niall says that it was done in conjunction with our site.

We received no payment for it. It's strange that you should say that we did, as you are in no position to know anything about it.

Niall said that he wanted publicity for the software patents problem and we got it for him. Are you saying that it was personal publicity that he wanted?

From memory, I think that he wrote to me and I corrected it, making sure his name was in the article.

Why are you getting so excited Alex?

Rediscover Old Workmates at NamesFacesPlaces

SupremeSpod

Veteran *****

Posts: 1769

(3/20/03 3:54:33 pm)

Reply The biggest insult...

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...a C++ programmer can ever be subjected to:-

Quote:

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Sorry, but I would strongly recommend against the above. That's just not the C++ way of doing things. To be honest, it makes you sound like you're a Java programmer who has learned C++ syntax but still hasn't mastered C++ idioms.

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ha, ha, and thrice ha

Spod - In "You young whipper snapper" mode!

mooZENDog

Member

Posts: 1

(3/20/03 3:54:50 pm)

Reply I disagree

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---QUOTE---

"You nicked the first one, put your name on it and then sold it to ContractorUK as your own. Then denied ever knowing Niall when you came on here to join in the fun of slagging the poor guy off".

---UNQUOTE---

I think NFP has actually been quite reasonable in this discussion. Having read the thread it seems like it's pretty much MarillionFan and SuperSpod (do you guys spend your lives on here? <looks at # of posts /> Oh, silly question!) who have regressed to infants.

Contractor UK

Administrator

Posts: 431

(3/20/03 3:57:28 pm)

Reply Re: The biggest insult...

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Come on, let Niall make his points and if you don't agree, offer some contructive criticism - we'll just remove posts which are offensive. Is it any wonder many first timers feel reluctant to use this board when they get flamed!

Thanks

Contractor UK - The IT Contractor Portal

mooZENDog

Member

Posts: 2

(3/20/03 4:02:33 pm)

Reply I agree

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Well said. Looking up out-of-context quotes to personally attack people are the actions of a child. The fact that it takes a moderator to tell you that enough is enough is very telling.

FLEETWOOD1975

Veteran ****

Posts: 1411

(3/20/03 4:03:50 pm)

Reply Re: The biggest insult...

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Quote:

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Is it any wonder many first timers feel reluctant to use this board when they get flamed!

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He is a first-timer, yet acts like a guy with twenty years experience, that's why he got shot down.

You deleted one of my posts, as well.

and a thread

Edited by: FLEETWOOD1975 at: 3/20/03 4:05:14 pm

MarillionFan

Veteran ****

Posts: 791

(3/20/03 4:04:15 pm)

Reply Re: I disagree

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"Having read the thread it seems like it's pretty much MarillionFan and SuperSpod (do you guys spend your lives on here? <looks at # of posts /> Oh, silly question!) who have regressed to infants. "

Thank you. I aim to please.

JOKE OVER!

PS : By the way Nial. Add a few more dummy accounts while your at it.

Edited by: MarillionFan at: 3/20/03 4:05:05 pm

NamesFacesPlaces

Veteran *****

Posts: 1656

(3/20/03 4:09:48 pm)

Reply Re: I agree

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I think that it is perfectly acceptable for contractors on this board to criticise articles that they disagree with - especially if they have much more experience than the person writing the article.

I would say though, that the majority of the people on this board are experienced contractors, and there has been one or two instances recently of new contractors asking advice here, and getting slagged off when they asked for it.

Perhaps new contractors are a little afraid to put their heads above the parapet here.

Rediscover Old Workmates at NamesFacesPlaces

Paving Roof

Regular

Posts: 40

(3/20/03 4:10:36 pm)

Reply Re: The biggest insult...

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Here here. At least the guy's got the balls to come on the board and start a thread - why post infantile and offensive responses (since removed I see)? Shouldn't need a moderator to come and tell you that!

MarillionFan

Veteran ****

Posts: 792

(3/20/03 4:17:29 pm)

Reply Re: I agree

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"Perhaps new contractors are a little afraid to put their heads above the parapet here. "

There is a whole world of difference between sticking your head above a parapet and asking a normal question and Nial .

Normal newbie threads are answered in normal fashion and do not get flamed (apart from by Milan who has been warned). They then join in the banter.

The difference here is that his approach was to jump up on the parapet wall drop your pants, stick your fingers in his ears, and shout 'Im a freaking genius, I'm a freaking genius'.

The conclusion of these actions are crystal clear.

BladeX45

Member

Posts: 1

(3/20/03 4:24:07 pm)

Reply Re: The biggest insult...

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Sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me. Well done for standing up to be counted Niall.

NamesFacesPlaces

Veteran *****

Posts: 1658

(3/20/03 4:27:45 pm)

Reply Re: I agree

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I know what you're saying MarillionMan, but it is interesting to note that a few first timers have appeared today and yesterday, and they've been pretty much unanimous in favour of Niall. Perhaps the prevailing culture made them a little reticent to join before and take part.

It's good to see a few more members.

I'll bet, also, that the second part of Niall's article will be very well read when published.

Rediscover Old Workmates at NamesFacesPlaces

Edited by: NamesFacesPlaces at: 3/20/03 4:31:16 pm

SupremeSpod

Veteran *****

Posts: 1771

(3/20/03 4:28:35 pm)

Reply Re: I agree

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How many of these newbies have the same IP address?

Spod - In "I R Genius" mode!

MarillionFan

Veteran ****

Posts: 793

(3/20/03 4:34:16 pm)

Reply Re: The biggest insult...

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"I know what you're saying MarillionFan, but it is interesting to note that a few first timers have appeared today and yesterday, and they've been pretty much unanimous in favour of Niall. Perhaps the prevailing culture made them a little reticent to join before and take part."

What a load of bollocks. It's most likely the same person.

There is no way in a million years that a newbie is going to join the site to say 'Thats what I was thinking', when the majority think what a tosser.

If I see another.

NEWBLOKE

Member

Posts 1.

'What a clever and informative article that was'

I will spit.

PS : Spod. We have got to stop posting after each other. MF in 'People will talk' Mode.

Edited by: MarillionFan at: 3/20/03 4:35:45 pm

Author Comment

TinTin

Moderator

Posts: 654

(3/20/03 4:37:10 pm)

Reply Opinionated

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Maybe we should ease off, I for one disagree about attacks based on one's personality and character. Everyone is different and should not be judged by what others think is normal and acceptable.

My issue with Niall is the reasoning behind his decision to go contracting, ie. I need 100 grand, can't get them from elsewhere, so I'll go and jump on the bandwagon. Only he is about 3 years late and he didn't seem to know. Not a well thought out business plan so to speak.

Otherwise, my sympathy goes to him as a fellow out of work contractor (OK, contractor to be).

Edited by: TinTin at: 3/20/03 4:55:21 pm

NamesFacesPlaces

Veteran *****

Posts: 1660

(3/20/03 4:38:14 pm)

Reply Re: I agree

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Ned14 (Niall Douglas),

Are you Moozendog and BladeX too?

Moderator, can you tell us whether they have the same IP address or not?

Rediscover Old Workmates at NamesFacesPlaces

mooZENDog

Member

Posts: 3

(3/20/03 4:44:13 pm)

Reply (nt)

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---QUOTE---

By the way Nial. Add a few more dummy accounts while your at it.

---UNQUOTE---

YOUR english is terrible BTW

It's not a dummy account though, I exist in my own right. I'd send an URL or my IP but would rather avoid the abuse thank you. Regarding the article...

---QUOTE---

Normal newbie threads are answered in normal fashion and do not get flamed (apart from by Milan who has been warned). They then join in the banter.

---UNQUOTE---

Oh, I see now. So are you going to point me in the direction of this usage guide you've written then? Hmm... sounds like you know it all really.

If we were posting to alt.2600 then I could imagine such condescending replies such as yours and that SuperSpod fellow. As it is, this is supposed to be a slightly more serious newsgroup, and I feel sorry that n00bs are subjected to this.

Fair enough, there were some slightly offtopic statements in the article. I don't know if you'd noticed, but Niall has tried to set a few things straight at the start of this article, none of which have even been acknowledged by yourselves. Fair enough, a little teasing may have been in order, but you've gone well over the top on this one!

I would have thought that veteran members would be slightly more considerate. In fact, on most of the newsgroups I've been on, the ops and veterans are generally good to n00bs. This place seems to be filled with playground bullies though - doesn't come up smelling of roses, know what I mean?

BladeX45

Member

Posts: 2

(3/20/03 4:52:40 pm)

Reply Re: I agree

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Yep I'm definitely real too thanks for asking!

trajectory

Veteran ****

Posts: 1252

(3/20/03 4:53:53 pm)

Reply Re: I agree

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Quote:

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playground bullies

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FFS how can you get bullied on a bulletin board?

Just stand up man and give them as good as you get.

ned14

Member

Posts: 2

(3/20/03 4:55:50 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Niall replies

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Not sure how to quote, so ...

--- cut ---

Niall, good to see you here to answer points.

Congratulations on your very successful article, which I believe is one of the most successful articles ever on this site.

--- cut ---

Yeah I know, my email box is bulging with emails of support. I guess there are loads of good engineers out there who are attracted to contracting but don't know where to start.

--- cut ---

What happened to the other articles in the series about the Emerging Threats to UK IT that you were going to do for NamesFacesPlaces?

--- cut ---

Well, you stopped asking for them! Plus events overtook me, of that series the last two were the most important and while I often sat down to write them, I never hammered at it till they were. There was, as always, some little thing in my code I wanted cleaning up before I presented it to interested investors.

BTW to those who think I am creating new accounts and/or spoofing IP's in order to post supporting replies, I actually distributed the diatribe against me in here to a list of personal contacts within the industry. It is they who are replying in support - and I haven't egged them on or anything, it's totally on their own.

On a point someone else posted, yeah, it's quite likely I'll never be a contractor (despite having contracted before - yeah that's right, I've had two prior contracts direct with the client - one which saw me flown over to Canada and put in a swanky hotel at the client's expense for three months) after posting my views. But I have always felt that if you see something which is wrong, silence is the best way of letting it continue.

Lastly, I am Niall Douglas. I always have been and always will be. I have never gone under a handle, pretended to be someone else, hidden my identity or obscured who I am. Those who post vitriol while hiding behind anonymity in my opinion are just scared and afraid, needing psychological protection against their words coming back to haunt them.

Cheers,

Niall

SupremeSpod

Veteran *****

Posts: 1772

(3/20/03 4:56:24 pm)

Reply Re: (nt)

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BTW,

It's "KNOB", not nOObs!

Spod - In "You just can't get the staff" mode!

MF, what can I say? Great Minds?

bassuk

Regular

Posts: 99

(3/20/03 5:02:29 pm)

Reply Get real and learn some humility

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Right so you waste the time of the worlds premier authorities on c++ with dumbass newbie questions and observations, and then confuse the fact that he is too polite to tell you to bugger off and read the relevent FAQ with some sort of peer exceptance !!.

You have a seriously skewed perception of your place in the world.

Infact Marshall sums it all up with this phrase

"Your experience with very small projects limits your ability to

understand how things work in the real world with large projects."

You would do well to read that phrase to yourself at least once a day.

It may come as a shock to you, but just about every neophyte c++/oo programmer with half a brain asks the much the same questions as you when they are learning but the difference between them and you is that they have the wisdom and humility to realise that they are indeed *learning* rather than assuming that their half-backed thoeries are right and 15 years of accumulated techique by experts is wrong.

--------------

Right so does anyone working on a critical c++ project want give a job to someone who thinks that private member variables are a bad idea

Paul C.

Edited by: bassuk at: 3/20/03 5:13:21 pm

SupremeSpod

Veteran *****

Posts: 1773

(3/20/03 5:06:15 pm)

Reply Re: (nt)

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Oi Bass,

you had to go and spoil it all with a constructive coherent reply didn't you?

Spod - In "not fair" mode!

Cynical Optimist

Regular

Posts: 89

(3/20/03 5:08:08 pm)

Reply Constructive advice

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Hey, I think I'm starting to like you (niall) now.

The constructive advice is:

Dont talk yourself up all the time, fair enough in an interview or on a brochure, but in an article that is supposed to be informative it just gets peoples backs up, hence the reaction. ( even the comment about the swanky hotel made my hackles rise ).

If you think you're good, try to tone it with a

"Obviously I think I'm one of the best, we all do", or you'll get into trouble on the testosterone fuled environment they have here. They all think they're the best on here so they all throw their teddies out of the pram if you sugest they might not be

And I'd go easy on the Bio, dont go on about girls you've been out with being mad, girls usually avoid blokes who say things like that, cos the common link between all these mad females is...you. And go back, edit it and remove the drug references ( one of these days you might want to go into politics or lose a really good job over it ).

But fair play on the effort, if you do have a good idea ( I cant really tell from the details on your site ), with that enthusiasm you'll go far.

Hey, and UP CORK!!, went to UCC myself.

Is Isaac Bells still up and running?

ned14

Member

Posts: 3

(3/20/03 5:11:33 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Opinionated

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Quote:

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With respect, it was far more of a lifestyle choice than for cash. My calculations showed that with IR35, I could only earn more contracting by staying almost fully employed, something which even the most experienced contractors are having trouble with.

I did know I was three years too late. That's the price of getting a rounded education through travel. Also, what other alternative is there other than to give up? The UK still has the biggest IT industry in the EU, and thus it's the best place to network. Even if Germans were to finance me (as they usually do to British inventors), I'd more likely meet them here than in Germany even though I can speak German.

Everyone gets really "can't do" during recessions and that's pointless. Sure, it's hard to create a new market with riches for everyone right now, but that's human nature. Hence, I need to make lots of contacts for the next few years and when the upturn arrives, get my finance and make my new paradigm a reality - whereupon my critics and denigrators will no doubt increase into their millions, as Bill Gates has found.

Of course, if you have a better suggestion, I am absolutely all ears ...

bakersdozen

Member

Posts: 9

(3/20/03 5:12:27 pm)

Reply I'm real

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I've been contracting six months and I think he's talking a load of shite as well. I've had 1 contract through an agency, the others are short termers and have come from me building my own business relationships which I intend to develop a lot further in the future. I don't want to read about someone who's been coding since childhood and written his own o/s who can't bag a contract. If you're that good, bulld your own business model and run with it, there's piles more money to be made from that.

Thank @#%$ I registered before the article came out, I can hold my head up high...

Anders

Regular

Posts: 33

(3/20/03 5:14:10 pm)

Reply Re: Anders replies

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Interesting, Niall. Dont take this personally but.....

Firstly, a word about patents. Milan has one on imaginary swimming pools. Unfortunately the exercise of obtaining one was wasted as no one wants one. They want the real thing. Lesson - what makes you so sure that anyone wants your product? Venture Capitalists didn't want to know. Believe me, they can spot a good product a mile off. Take criticism on the chin and listen to people who have the benefit of experience, and remember that you on the other hand don't. Success follows a string of failures, usually in any case - let this be your first.

Secondly, commercial experience is the key as you and others point out. Contracting is not about being the best coder or developing the best piece of software. Nor is it about contacts.

BTW, even though your very new in IT, its best to remember that IT itself has been around for some time. Dont try to re-invent the wheel by inventing some "new" language or software tool. Truth is:

1) someone has already done it

2) as above but years ago, and its now free

3) coding costs are high and with the drive to lower them companies can get it done overseas at a fraction of the cost you would charge

HTH, I know it wont, but it is hactually the thought that counts

Anders

(In clients time ..... how unprofessional is that?)

mooZENDog

Member

Posts: 4

(3/20/03 5:17:15 pm)

Reply Replies

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---QUOTE---

It's "KNOB", not nOObs!

Spod - In "You just can't get the staff" mode!

---UNQUOTE---

n00b = newbie. You sure you've never heard of that before?

If you ever have difficulty with words...

dictionary.reference.com/search?q=n00b

---QUOTE---

FFS how can you get bullied on a bulletin board?

Just stand up man and give them as good as you get.

---UNQUOTE---

Yeah, point taken. I could 'give them as good as you get', but I'd probably get chucked off for getting too personal. Nothing I like more than a decent flamewar (I've been itching to take the piss out of Spods different 'modes' - very cool BTW Spod) but I've had to restrain myself

My point is that this is supposedly a industry-specific site, it's supposedly professional, and even if it wasn't I'd expect more than piss-taking. I suspect that I've just ended up feeding the trolls on this one though.

bassuk

Regular

Posts: 100

(3/20/03 5:18:25 pm)

Reply Re: Opinionated

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sorry spod.

I will try to be more fivolous in future

Paul C.

SupremeSpod

Veteran *****

Posts: 1774

(3/20/03 5:19:28 pm)

Reply Re: Anders replies

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So, MooZENdog is Niall after all, what a sad twat!

BTW, just what did you do to that girl to get labelled a stalker?

Spod - In "Ready when you are Niall" mode!

ned14

Member

Posts: 4

(3/20/03 5:22:37 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Get real and learn some humility

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Quote:

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If you'd read that conversation all the way down, Marshall says some very nice things about me. Plus, I seriously doubt he'd have sat for four hours every night replying if he wasn't getting something out of it ie; he wasn't talking with some "half-baked" newbie.

I should also add we've had further conversations since. And my knowledge of C++ is vastly improved, so much so I could quite easily work with very experienced C++ programmers. How can I say this? Because very experienced C++ programmers say so after looking at my code - while it isn't quite OO (I think OO fundamentally flawed), it's close enough.

Lastly, anyone in IT knows how it evolves quickly. Who does the evolution? You'll tend to find it's younger rather than older programmers who do the step-change evolution, whereas older programmers tend to go for incremental evolution. There are plenty of examples of this in the free software world.

MarillionFan

Veteran ****

Posts: 794

(3/20/03 5:23:12 pm)

Reply Lucky.

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Spod, can you imagine whats going to happen when Milan catches up with thread.

stehuk

Veteran **

Posts: 423

(3/20/03 5:28:33 pm)

Reply Re: Replies

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It's a laugh. We are all so happy to judge ourselves as superior by our own criteria. Forget the idea of any intelligent discussion of what is correct or not in the article. Let's just go out of our way to rip the guy to pieces. Happly the majority of us are experienced contractors (with a pretty well rounded view of what this business is really like) so if we can be bothered to post at all in this discussion, we are likely to be picking the right side.

However, looking at the details in the article there are several grains of truth which I think most of us would recognise.

There are an estimated 180,000 new IT graduates each year. Only 24,000 manage to obtain work in IT (pretty constant for the last four years). These young people are sold down the river on a promise that is unlikely ever to be fulfilled. I for one have some sympathy for their plight.

Sure Niall is a pretty unusual character. It would be a shame if we awere all the same though. In any case, if nobody is prepared to put themselves on the line nothing of any worth ever gets written.

We don't have to agree, but a bit more understanding wouldn't go amiss.

ned14

Member

Posts: 5

(3/20/03 5:29:52 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Constructive advice

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Quote:

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And I'd go easy on the Bio, dont go on about girls you've been out with being mad, girls usually avoid blokes who say things like that, cos the common link between all these mad females is...you.

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I actually put any new girlfriend onto the site as soon as possible so they know what to expect. None in five years has reacted badly, and in fact I think all of them have posted their own entries

Quote:

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And go back, edit it and remove the drug references ( one of these days you might want to go into politics or lose a really good job over it ).

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Already have lost plenty from the drug references eg; a scholarship, US work visa. It did gain me a degree though, because they were desperate to get rid of me so they passed me anyway

Quote:

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But fair play on the effort, if you do have a good idea ( I cant really tell from the details on your site ), with that enthusiasm you'll go far.

Hey, and UP CORK!!, went to UCC myself.

Is Isaac Bells still up and running?

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My father was the head of department of education at UCC for some time, so I know it well. No idea about Isaac Bells, it's been ages since I was last in Ireland and when I'm there all the nightlife places keep changing their names. Booming economy and all I suppose.

Cheers,

Niall

Author Comment

allocj

Member

Posts: 6

(3/20/03 5:31:03 pm)

Reply Re: Get real and learn some humility

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not a frequent poster here, but I got to say, Niall you are so far up yourself it must really hurt!!

SupremeSpod

Veteran *****

Posts: 1775

(3/20/03 5:33:42 pm)

Reply Re: Replies

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MB, comeback, all is forgiven.

Quote:

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(I think OO fundamentally flawed)

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ROFLMAO!!!!

Spod - In "I make my living from Project Managing C++ development" mode!

bassuk

Regular

Posts: 101

(3/20/03 5:43:16 pm)

Reply Re: Get real and learn some humility

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Ill see your "(I think OO fundamentally flawed)" and raise you "take your typical novice with OO ...."

You really couldnt make this up .

----

Hint for Niall: learn the relationship between subclassing an subtyping, and why inheritance is primarily driven by the latter not the former in c++. (sorry spod - broke out into constructive mode again there)

Paul C.

Edited by: bassuk at: 3/20/03 5:45:51 pm

AliMcLeod

Regular

Posts: 45

(3/20/03 5:45:22 pm)

Reply Re: Opinionated

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get my finance and make my new paradigm a reality

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I've only half-followed this series of threads (they got too boring and too childish too quick, for my liking), but is your OS on top of Linux, OSX and Windows this "new paradigm", or is it something else?

For your sake, please say its something else.

From reading your article, I'd say you need a reality check, in acceptance the skils and experience you actually have, in your ability to deliver what you say you can deliver and in your ability to get financing.

Good luck with what you choose to do.

ZATHRAS999

Full Member

Posts: 198

(3/20/03 5:48:48 pm)

Reply Some more Constructive advice

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Niall

Some more advice. In your article you described contracting as a Tax avoidance vehicle. In the current political environment there is nothing more likely to raise the hackles of contractors. Contracting is not just a tax avoidance scame. Their are perfectly good reasons why contractors used a limited company. More specifically, clients want to avoid you being reclassified as an employee, always a risk with a pure self-employed relationship so they would rather you were not. Agents don't want to use self-employed people in case they become responsible for your tax, again possible under the current tax regulations.

Tornado. Another thing it may be the best thing since sliced bread. It may be the answer to all our problems in computing, but it is not possible to tell from your website. There really are very few new ideas in this world. As a potential purchaser or investor I need to know these kind of things.

Most of the best ideas in technology and software came out of a need. Do you think Tim Berners Lee woke up one morning and said "I'm going to invent the web and change the face of computing". No, he did n't he just saw a need and fulfilled it. Microcomputers did n't grow out of a need for geeks to become rich, they just wanted a computer of their own. Almost everytime someone was prompted to create technology to become rich it has failed. That's because technology is not an end in itself, it is a means to an end. You really need to show how Tornado will help a potential buyer/investor and then people would be interested.

Another thing. If you want people to take the idea seriously seperate the Product from the personal stuff. And have a look at the design. It really needs a serious look at. Give it a far more professional look at it. Being a little blunt. I would not be interested in further investigation once I'd seen the front page. And by the way. When doing a screen dump get rid of the girl in the bikini. It's considered highly unprofessional. On your own machine at home it's all very well (lets be honest how many of us Male developers have such pictures) but in a public environment those picture go. What I'd suggest you do is look at other sites selling a software solution and nick some ideas (we all do it), and whatever you do make sure you give some real life examples of how tornado is going to make your buyer's life easier.

Also don't blame others for your problems. The reaction you got (and I admit it even from me) is completly down to the tone of what you wrote, and from your bio the same thing in other aspects. Look to yourself. Don't blame others for your problems as yourself why. The answer lies with you.

sunnysan

Veteran **

Posts: 431

(3/20/03 5:49:31 pm)

Reply Good on you....

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To Niall,

Fair play, you have confidence, you must be very meticulous (If you document your whole life on your website), and you must be pretty passionate about what you do.

One thing you seem to lack is diplomacy, in the queens English , you p"ss people off.

Granted this newsgroup is not the most friendly place in the world and its a lot easier to critisise with online anonymity than in person.

However it must be said that this newsgroup is representative of the IT contracting community and your reception here may mirror the reception you will get in real life with job interviews and agents.

IMHO , you have eveything you need to secure a contract, keep your theories and personal life to yourself, and work on those people skills.

This is not America, humility gets you a long way here.

ned14

Member

Posts: 6

(3/20/03 6:05:31 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Anders replies

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Interesting, Niall. Dont take this personally but.....

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Oh no, anything constructive is very welcome.

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Yeah getting that across is a problem. I speak of lowering business costs, increasing productivity and generally revolutionising software, but people want to know hard numbers and see the thing in action. Theory is useless without it being shown in action.

Hence I threw together a demo, which while it runs fails to make an impact like "omg sign this now it's the next big killer app". To get it to when it would make such an impact, I need one year.

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Venture Capitalists didn't want to know. Believe me, they can spot a good product a mile off.

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Actually, they did think it was a good product - or at least their tech advisors said it showed great promise. Problem was the investment period - I need the 64,000 pounds for three years minimum whereas VC's want to invest for six months to a year.

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Take criticism on the chin and listen to people who have the benefit of experience, and remember that you on the other hand don't. Success follows a string of failures, usually in any case - let this be your first.

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Have done, more than you could possibly know. Ultimately, I must sit down and make it impressive - then I get the finance. To make it impressive, I need to keep writing it.

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Secondly, commercial experience is the key as you and others point out. Contracting is not about being the best coder or developing the best piece of software. Nor is it about contacts.

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Perhaps then it's hard for me to understand - someone wants something done. They hire a contractor to do it. They do it. Job finished, everyone happy.

My problem is with the reliance on commercial experience. I'm not saying this because I don't have any and I feel I'm entitled to work, I'm saying this is short-sighted of them and apt not to employ the best at their job. Obviously those with plenty of commercial experience are unlikely to criticise the system, it takes a disenfranchised newbie like me to do so.

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BTW, even though your very new in IT, its best to remember that IT itself has been around for some time. Dont try to re-invent the wheel by inventing some "new" language or software tool. Truth is:

1) someone has already done it

2) as above but years ago, and its now free

3) coding costs are high and with the drive to lower them companies can get it done overseas at a fraction of the cost you would charge

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My project Tornado is built on top of Qt for the platform abstraction and Python for the scripting engine. That leaves my stuff as the minimum needed which uniquely makes my project. There are a number of systems which are slightly similar eg; Plan 9 or the world OS. But mine is most definitely the only to integrate dozens of good ideas from all over the place into one cohesive system, a system which breaks all boundaries because it's so strong in so many areas at once.

I know it's hard to believe me, but when I finally get this out there and people using it, it'll be one of those when people look back and wonder how the hell they did without it eg; like having a GUI, or even a DOS.

Anyway, gotta go, curry night tonight!

Cheers,

Niall

MarillionFan

Veteran ****

Posts: 796

(3/20/03 6:27:49 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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Again, you confuse technical ability with commercial experience. Its a chicken an egg scenario. Its about such horrible sayings as 'delivery', 'hitting the ground running', 'experience' etc.

Contracting in the pure sense is about hiring somebody to fill a gap. It may be covering staff, it may be filling someones requirements as part of a project plan, it may be to make somebody feel important, it may be to keep headcount down, money from a different pot, to add value.

The one thing that flows through contracting is that technical ability must be complimented with business sense, the ability to instantly understand the problem and the ability to handle people.

It is with absolutely no doubt in my mind that the best technical people do not make the best contractors. In truth, there are plenty of £20k a year grunts out there who can technically code better than loads of us. I am a lousy coder. The difference comes in their ability at handling managers, their peers, the situation. The ability to flag problems, come up with 'real' solutions to 'real' problems. To not bang on about the theoretical basis or the solution, to not get stuck on problems and look for others to help them out. It's about the 80/20 rule and University teaches you to go for 100% ( an unatainable goal in my opinion )

As much as some of us appear arrogant and dismissing, this is the worst time for contractors and contracting and those who are still working are confident with their skills and have done their apprenticeships. It is not enough to be technically the best, you must be better than everyone around you both technically, professionally and within business. But you cannot let them know it.

Edited by: MarillionFan at: 3/20/03 6:28:46 pm

xoggoth

Veteran *****

Posts: 1901

(3/20/03 7:00:50 pm)

Reply Re: Anders replies

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The whole purpose of software evolution theoretically is to arrive at a faster and more transparent way of doing things. So one assumes that Niall's 'revolutionary software' equates to fewer pro IT jobs.

Given the way things should have evolved and the way they actually have I personally feel quite relaxed about that.

Take a simple example, building websites.

As anyone who has used them knows the usual packages don't really do the full job. They are not that simple to use and you end up with all sorts of problems due to inefficient and redundant code so you always end up having to dive into the HTML. How hard is it to optimise two consecutive font settings?.

It should be perfectly possible to make something that almost any Mr. Not an IT man could use, simple Word type interface with FTP package included so just go to menu/update my website when finished. Add an icon type builder on IconAuthor lines and a set of predefined functions and he could do the simpler Java/CGI stuff too.

Like so many other simple improvements in software it never seems to happen.

The revolutionary seems even less likely.

Edited by: xoggoth at: 3/20/03 7:10:33 pm

hap

Regular

Posts: 21

(3/20/03 7:32:42 pm)

Reply Finding a contract

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Niall,

No offence, but if you're really serious about finding a job or contract, don't let them see your website beforehand.

prowla

Member

Posts: 1

(3/20/03 9:32:32 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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Hi, Niall

I've got some comments (criticisms) for you. They are NOT intended to be a personal attack, so please bear that in mind.

I really think that your article wasn't written from the perspective of a contractor seeking clients, but rather as an prospective employee seeking a job, as demonstrated in phrases like "Employers tend to have agencies find the contractors for them", "However, for work mostly on-site of the employer", and "There seems, in my view, a lack of will to invest in employees in the UK". It is important to note that contractors are not employed by their clients.

You've also bought the government propaganda on IR35 hook, line and sinker, by reiterating the supposition that contractors simply set up limited companies as a tax avoidance scam.

I would suggest that, regardless of how good you work is (I obviously can't comment), perhaps you have shown that you are not suited to the world of contracting.

Bren586

Regular

Posts: 109

(3/20/03 9:35:28 pm)

Reply Re: Anders replies

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First off Niall - 10 out of 10 for coming out and defending yourself.

What has raised so much merriment and comment is what your article and web site display in abundance; youthful arrogance, naivety and a breath taking lack of real world experience.

When I left university I worked with people who had more than 10 years experience and they beat a little humility into me. They had an annoying habit of being right. "Yes its a good idea but this is a better way of doing it" when talking about my new killer idea for doing something. How did they do this time after time ? Simple, they had experience.

How do you get experience ? You gain experience over time. THERE IS NO SHORT CUT FOR THIS. This is why adverts ask for 5 years experience. Unfair perhaps but life's like that.

Contractors are not necessarily contractors for the money. The money is not always there. I am on the bench again and the invoicing machine is quiet at the moment. The contractors that I know are in it more for the life style.

Living abroad is not going to set you apart or above from other IT professionals - just ask Dodgy and he will clue you in on the dangers of "forn parts". The Milan Invoicing Machine will tell you how wonderful those same parts are and to avoid this septic isles at all costs.

Loose all the personal stuff from your business web site. It does not enhance your professional standing for people to read your views on women or the fact that you drank a load of whiskey and feel rough today. Most of the contributors to this site will have, as callow youths, expressed similar opinions but they did theirs in the pub not on a web site for all to see. An employer may say that he wants to know the real employee but he is lying - trust me on this one. If you have warts then he will not hire you.

Another avenue for you to explore would be understatement.

In 10 years time you may recall what you have written and I would hope that you would cringe.

All the best with the killer app, you can rest assured that feed back for it will be available from this noble body in vast quantity - some of it will be worth reading.

As for contracting - Its April next month, the war has started and things may pick up. However I suspect that you will not be team leading a new project. You may, however, be a junior code monkey if you are lucky and the interview goes well.

And to finish with a joke that I hope will encapsulate the difference between yourself and many members of this board

A young bull and an old bull are stood chewing the cud. The young bull says "See all those cows down there ? Lets run down and sh@g one of them"

The old bull says "Nope - lets walk down and sh@g them all"

Bren - In "A large Gin with a rumour of tonic" mode!

Edited by: Bren586 at: 3/20/03 10:13:24 pm

Vetran

Veteran ***

Posts: 510

(3/20/03 9:55:37 pm)

Reply The whole world is a stage

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Niall

I think you are missing the point about sales, people buy things for many reasons, but they also decide not to buy things for ten times more reasons.

I try to keep my personal opinions to myself in front of customers, they see a shiny shrink wrapped (must go on a diet) product that solves their problem, and they believe that because I've done it before.

So you need image and experience even if you are the dogs do-da's

Seperate your work and and private sites, get two domain names, host them on the same server by all means. Have one for Nialls rants and one for Tornado pick a catchy domain name, cost <£10.

I would say something like 'Tornado Operating System Site' - TOSS.com for short but I'd probably get told off for frightening newbies.

I was once a newbie and the OLD hands gave me a fairly rough ride if I said something arrogant or stupid, but if you think this is bad try the TAX man, vat man and the sheer frustration you will suffer dealing with half of those with the word Manager in their title.

Get a professional sales person to read your pitch and work with it, taking side swipes at major corporations will not impress.

Make what you are selling simple to understand and appear professionally produced, avoid buzzword bingo, you are selling the idea to non technical people. Make the benefits obvious and the challanges appear manageable.

If you do make it big your fellow investors will need to put you up on the podium, remember what happened to william vague, his past came back to haunt him.

As far as your article goes, I would suggest you research your target market before suggesting they are a bunch of tax cheats. Alternatively run into a Glasgow bar and shout 'all scotsmen are poofs' its likely to provoke similar feelings.

I'm not going to comment on your technical ability, I don't know but the people I know who are more than competent don't expound similar views.

Your comments about women who you feel have wronged you are not particularly pleasant and are probably best left unsaid.

Thought for the day

If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all

Bren586

Regular

Posts: 110

(3/20/03 9:57:58 pm)

Reply If you want to breed

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Remove the diary and "Niall's theory of women".

Only the NSA can read peoples email and get away with it.

Bren586

Regular

Posts: 111

(3/20/03 10:22:10 pm)

Reply Just to touch on one other thing

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You claim 18 years experience and you are 24.

Well you may well have started typing in some BASIC stuff at an early age but when people are talking about professional experience they mean experience gained in a professional environment.

When employers are looking for people to work for them then they want to take as few risks as possible. They want people who conform to their model of an employee.

Again this might not be fair or even right but it is their ball and if you want to play then it is by their rules.

There is nothing that you are going to be able to do about it in the short term and in the long term you will be supporting it.

hyperD

Veteran ***

Posts: 533

(3/21/03 2:11:47 am)

Reply Re: Just to touch on one other thing

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Niall,

When you're flipping burgers this year and having a good laugh about when you left college and "took on the world" you sat down, lived a bit, grew a little, learned about humility and how to interact with people. One day, you might earn a wage and add something to business and the lives of people. Good luck to you, I hope you sort things out eventually. Learn from the above experience and challenge if necessary.

A Novice.

gromit1000

Member

Posts: 14

(3/21/03 5:25:28 am)

Reply Belbin

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From the previous Niall thread:

"indeed my business team aptitude test results indicate I am a multi-role capable team worker (or "plant" as the test called it)"

The test referred to is the Belbin team role evaluation. A plant is not a multi role team worker. A plant is the ideas person and by virtue of their temperament they are rarely team players. Usually they have a reputation as 'characters', mildly eccentric' or sometimes just plain weird. I know - I am one. At interviews I always claim to be a team player and never, ever mention my Psych tests.

SupremeSpod

Veteran *****

Posts: 1776

(3/21/03 7:53:54 am)

Reply Re: Just to touch on one other thing

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So, the general consensus Niall is that you're a tosser who needs to grow up!

I remember when I started in IT, I also was given a hard time because I was arrogant enough to think I knew it all - I didn't, and I still don't!

However, at 24 I was nearly married, had two step daughters and a mortgage to support. That has a tendency to focus the mind a little.

Word of advice - take it or leave it - when in negotiation, always give the other side a diplomatic face saving way out.

Spod - In "HTH " mode!

bassuk

Regular

Posts: 102

(3/21/03 8:33:37 am)

Reply Re: Belbin

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"Obviously those with plenty of commercial experience are unlikely to criticise the system, it takes a disenfranchised newbie like me to do so."

What complete and utter bollocks. Your arrogance is truly staggering, do you really think you are only person on this earth capable of original probing thought ?. I challenge everything everywhere I go (professionally) but I keep one thing in the back of my mind all the time: generally even what seem like the dumbest thing ever with hindsight is usually done for resoans that were valid at the time by smart (sometimes very smart) people.

The problem for you is that IMO your arrogance isnt backed by stellar ability (in which case it might be excusable) - your shallow and poorly reasoned arguments in the c++ interchange with cline demostrate this. You failed to research your subject properly, and infact demostrated a complete lack of deep analytic ability. If your going to revolutionise the software world then you are going to have to work a @#%$ of alot harder.

Paul C.

FLEETWOOD1975

Veteran ****

Posts: 1412

(3/21/03 8:38:36 am)

Reply Re: Belbin

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I started a thread saying, unequivocally, that I wanted Niall's babies, but it was removed.

Author Comment

cloggs

Full Member

Posts: 186

(3/21/03 8:56:49 am)

Reply Re: Belbin

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“but I keep one thing in the back of my mind all the time: generally even what seem like the dumbest thing ever with hindsight is usually done for reasons that were valid at the time by smart (sometimes very smart) people.”

Well said! There have been a number of times I have been invited to criticize work done by previous persons, but I always state that as I was not present at the time I do not know the circumstances and the reasons why. The IT industry is getting full of inexperienced kids who jump to conclusion, have no analytical skills and will not persevere with a problem.

hoodedclaw

Member

Posts: 8

(3/21/03 9:03:11 am)

Reply Re: Get real and learn some humility

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Niall, could you explain your reasoning behind your OO flawed comment. Being a relative newbie to the OO world I would find the observations of someone like you interesting.

nippleburger

Regular

Posts: 129

(3/21/03 9:18:47 am)

Reply The Niall Formula

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Confidence - Experience = Arrogance

FredBloggers

Member

Posts: 1

(3/21/03 12:26:17 pm)

Reply Niall replies

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My first thought on readingthe article was....unprintable. My thoughts then passed to replying in some form.

---quote---

Well, it would seem that they want direct actual commercial experience in the job. For example, if they want a C++ programmer working on financial systems spread across Unix and NT (common in the City), you might have thought I’d be ideal as technology-wise, I’m a perfect fit. But no, there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding that experience is not transferable – that somehow a financial computer system is fundamentally different to any other. Just because the technology is 100% exactly the same seems to matter not a jot.

---quote---

Presumably, having never worked in, say, the investment banking environment, your knowledge of C++ would mean that you could INSTANTLY drop into a team of developers building an in-house derivatives risk modelling package. No? Thought not...

cfcfanforlife

Member

Posts: 14

(3/21/03 12:41:47 pm)

Reply Very Confused

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I am very confused by Niall. He is 24 yet claims to have 18 years programming experience??? Additionally he says he has no commercial experience and on his web site he says he needs to look for his first job.

In his exchanges with Marshall Cline he allegedly got head hunted to go an sort out a programming mess in Canada, and has done some stuff in Spain? Now either his web site is wrong or he was just trying to impress Marshall Cline who (if you read the whole exchanges of the e-mails) took him to the cleaners and eventually gave up on him after he started insulting the Americans.

I am not sure how this Tornado software is a new concept. XML is entirely data driven and is used extensively. Additionally Tornado can't be described as an OS because it piggy backs off Window, LINUX and MAC.

I actually feel sorry for this guy, he doesn't seem to be able to handle lifes harsh lessons and has therefore taken to living in an ideal cloud cuckoo land.

Other than those small points I agree with everybody else that he should have more respect for those around him and keep his personal life exactly that personal.

mike1086

Regular

Posts: 88

(3/21/03 1:29:41 pm)

Reply Admins

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Shouldn't this entire post be moved to Light Relief.

The box said 'Requires Win95 or better.'

---=== So I installed Linux ===---

ned14

Member

Posts: 7

(3/21/03 2:16:27 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Some more Constructive advice

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With respect, you are falling for the hype various people have pumped out about contracting ie; that tax avoidance is bad. Of course it isn't - tax evasion is bad (and illegal), but tax avoidance is something everyone does every day even if they don't realise. For example, anyone can offer to pay more tax (by massaging their self-assessment appropriately) and I'm quite sure the government would happily accept.

I never said contracting was about tax-avoidance - I did say the use of the dividend/salary split in a limited company is about that and that's why so many manual workers set themselves up as contractors before IR35 (this is primarily the reason the IR went with IR35 according to a friend of mine who has since retired from the IR). The IR was always aware most IT contractors were running a business in the traditional sense whereas most of the manual workers at the time were leaving their current employ and contracting themselves back with that employer with no other changes. That loophole was the primary one they wished to close, and unfortunately they caught a good segment of the IT industry too.

The IR has always treated small businesses in the UK with a great deal of leniency, believing them to be the bedrock of innovation and growth in the economy. You will probably be already hopping with anger having read this, but it is true. Look at all the small businesses which make a loss on paper every year for ten or twenty years - that clearly can't be economically viable, yet the IR permits small businesses to pay themselves a relatively high salary in order to make a loss in order not to pay income tax (ie; a tax avoidance measure). There are tens of thousands of these small businesses, many family run. For the IR to go after these would cause massive damage.

If you don't believe me on this, why then is IR35 so limited in scope? If the IR wanted to hunt down small businesses, why not impose rules to prevent self-created losses every year?

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Granted, there are no new ideas in there. The new idea is the combination of lots of seperate ideas into one cohesive whole which performs far more than the sum of its parts. I would also say the style of the API's is quite different from anything else out there - I have used a field-filling style whereby the layering of the API's is based on no code=default (and 98% always sufficient) code. To build code, you fill in the blanks rather than implement stuff ie; it's a very functional style as all Tornado is - this then builds towards the eventual new Tornado programming language, which will be a functional/imperitive hybrid. It took me six rewrites of the API to get this style right - it's why I only wrote 25,000 lines in four months - but I believe it's now mostly spot on.

Potential investors don't read websites when trawling for investment. Obviously, if I got my investment, I'd make a seperate website (this one based in the UK) so I could get credit card transations in sterling or euro rather than dollars.

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Precisely what I'm doing. This project pure and simple solves a need. In fact, it would be marketed as a "techie toolbox" because you will need training before you can use it - so no point in business men using it, unless they're quite techie already. For example, have you ever wished you could combine GUI programs like you can programs on the Unix command line? Well, under Tornado, you can.

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Microcomputers did n't grow out of a need for geeks to become rich, they just wanted a computer of their own. Almost everytime someone was prompted to create technology to become rich it has failed. That's because technology is not an end in itself, it is a means to an end. You really need to show how Tornado will help a potential buyer/investor and then people would be interested.

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I'm not like GPL advocates in that I do want to make a living off the code I write. I believe for anything there must be adequate reward for success, and the GPL doesn't give that except via a specialist knowledge services based way (not lucrative enough). Basically I'm a programmer, Tornado primarily is for making being a programmer vastly more productive, so therefore I know my target market well. Furthermore, Tornado will create a new market which means growth and new jobs with no sacrificing of existing ones, so I shouldn't step on any toes.

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It couldn't be ready for sale without at least another year of full time programming, probably even 18 months. Hence, no point in anything other than a very personal page.

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If you knew me, I already do loads of introspection. My main problem lies in being unable to see myself from other people's viewpoints - and therein, one needs to seek out people with other viewpoints and get them to tell you.

In this, that article has done a fantastic job. The constructive replies I see here today are exactly the kind of stuff I wanted (I'd have preferring criticism of the article, but it's still very useful if it's criticism of me). How else can I explain not having had a single interview in three weeks? One needs to seek out the views of strangers, just like those binning my CV.

Cheers,

Niall

ned14

Member

Posts: 8

(3/21/03 2:24:46 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Good on you....

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Fair play, you have confidence, you must be very meticulous (If you document your whole life on your website), and you must be pretty passionate about what you do.

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Actually, I don't. People are very quick to try and use that website on me but they don't realise I expect them to do that and thus have prepared the material appropriately. What's on that site is what I want you to see, not what really goes on.

You're immediately now thinking it's fictional. No, it's all quite true, but merely a rendition of truth. Every thought and moment has dozens of streams of conscienceness running through it, and the best writing manages to combine many streams into one text. I occasionally manage this, but I'm not that great a writer.

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One thing you seem to lack is diplomacy, in the queens English , you p"ss people off.

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My existence pisses some people off!

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IMHO , you have eveything you need to secure a contract, keep your theories and personal life to yourself, and work on those people skills

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Precisely! And taking all your comments onboard will hopefully help me here.

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This is not America, humility gets you a long way here.

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Heh, that's amazing. I was only talking about that to a friend literally an hour ago with regard to all this. The English like an understated confidence whereas Americans prefer a brash approach. I, being Irish, get both sides tugging at me. Interestingly, in Spain people also prefer a brash approach, which is possibly how I have unlearned to be reserved and understated having just returned from living there.

Cheers,

Niall

sunnysan

Veteran **

Posts: 440

(3/21/03 2:25:41 pm)

Reply Eh?

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"How else can I explain not having had a single interview in three weeks?"

Errm ... let me think ...... , maybe the market is cr@p?

If you are running low on cash you can always go work on a construction site to tide you over. I met a few IT graduates there as well.

ned14

Member

Posts: 9

(3/21/03 2:32:20 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Niall replies

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Firstly, thanks for the constructive advice MarillionFan! I was surprised!

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This is sound sound stuff, and it hadn't occurred to me. All business is about building relationships between people and it is this ability which marks out a businessman from an employee. I now get what you mean about being a novice - because while I have been a businessman, it has always been on quite a small scale and I've not had much practice at it. Also, being good at poker is strongly correlated with business acumen, and I'm really crap at poker - so I'd tend to think I'll never be more than adequate at it.

If I end up returning to permie-land, I'd like to write a second article for CUK expressing precisely this kind of stuff. Get newbie's thinking about if they've got the stuff.

Cheers,

Niall

MarillionFan

Veteran ****

Posts: 800

(3/21/03 2:32:37 pm)

Reply Re: Good on you....

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"Errm ... let me think ...... , maybe the market is cr@p?"

Even if it was fantastic he still wouldnt get anything.

ned14

Member

Posts: 10

(3/21/03 2:37:57 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Anders replies

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Not at all. Wherever you see a step-change in software technology eg; from monolithic executables to shared libraries (DLL), or from shared libraries to OO - you see a creation of a new field which adds without subtracting. Or, in terms of economics, you create a new market and thus grow the economy.

When C++ became really popular, C jobs remained pretty constant and they're still very much in demand today. When Tornado becomes really popular, people will still have need to maintain and write in older paradigms ie; Tornado doesn't replace anything, it's a new way of using and doing the same things. This implies no detraction to the current industry.

Cheers,

Niall

sunnysan

Veteran **

Posts: 442

(3/21/03 2:43:51 pm)

Reply Ned

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"My existence pisses some people off!"

This is clearly a problem. When you are Warren Buffet or Rupert Murdoch yopu can piss people off as much as you like

you also say

"All business is about building relationships between people and it is this ability which marks out a businessman from an employee. I now get what you mean about being a novice - because while I have been a businessman, it has always been on quite a small scale "

If this is your attitude I would refer to the first quote in this article as you cant build relationships with people if you p"ss them off.

ned14

Member

Posts: 11

(3/21/03 2:44:36 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Niall replies

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Excellent point, and the first to tackle the article. You're absolutely correct - I've used the wrong terminology. Those three sentences above should become:

Clients tend to have agencies find the contractors for them

However, for work mostly on-site of the client

There seems, in my view, a lack of will to invest in workers in the UK

I'll submit a revision to the article.

Cheers,

Niall

ned14

Member

Posts: 12

(3/21/03 2:53:32 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: If you want to breed

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Remove the diary and "Niall's theory of women".

Only the NSA can read peoples email and get away with it.

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I've always had a policy of not going back and deleting anything I've previously said - and I have said some extremely cringeworthy stuff on that site in the past. As anyone who knows me knows, I in reality often bear little resemblence to the outbursts on my site. I will add however a disclaimer saying past views are just that.

Cheers,

Niall

MarillionFan

Veteran ****

Posts: 802

(3/21/03 2:59:18 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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Nial. I really do need to re-iterate the comments of the dozen or so contractors on this board who have told you to split your personal website into professional and personal.

You should have a website about tornado, your company, your attempt to get VC money. A professional approach.

Keep your NedProd website seperate. Employers, colleagues etc dont want to see the other @#%$. It gives a bad impression of yourself and your professionalism.

Whereas the work I do doesnt require me to have a site and in addition I dont program HTML whatsoever, but at the risk of having the piss taken badly my attempt is

Marillions attempt at a website

Agents like to have a look to get a better idea of my CV and one day I may decide to learn how to do it properly.

ned14

Member

Posts: 13

(3/21/03 3:11:41 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Belbin

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"Obviously those with plenty of commercial experience are unlikely to criticise the system, it takes a disenfranchised newbie like me to do so."

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True. However, most people learn things as the way they are, never really asking why they are. This then leads to building on top of existing systems, which over time causes the system to move away from optimal, upon which time a "correction" or step-change in required to return it back to optimal. Any society which fails to do this goes the way of communism.

IT is due for a step-change. Nothing from Microsoft or IBM makes me think they're going to produce it. I take the view that OO is broken - not that any expert could have seen it earlier to now - but I've not found anyone who could address my concerns about it.

Regarding my original point, for example people who come out of the education system with a history of straight A's and a first class degree from Oxbridge are extremely unlikely to criticise the failings of the western education paradigm (there are one or two exceptions). They are unlikely to because they benefited from it, and to undermine it means being bold enough to potentially undermine themselves in order to improve the lot of everyone. From the majority of the posts in here, I am seeing agreement that experience does not correlate strongly with ability - and thus what employers look for is not optimal for getting the best employees. However, you all seem to have taken it for granted that it is a fact of life without doing anything to change it.

Sure, you all view me as arrogant because I come along and say all these things which aren't usually said. Because of my age, many have called me nieve. But please, if I'm wrong for a very good reason, state that reason and prove me wrong rather than just saying that I am wrong.

Saying this will probably raise heckles, but I would say 75% of my points regarding IT cannot be disproved by even the most expert in their field (this used to be much lower, but I am improving). A conversation is usually resolved with an agreement to hold two opinions, but I know I have shaken up many an expert and at least caused them for the first time in ages to really reconsider and reevaluate their beliefs.

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Read the end of that conversation. You will find I vastly improve and while I'm not sure, if you were to ask Marshall what he thinks of me he'd call me "arrogant, bolshy and naive, but very capable" plus I'd warrant he learned one or two things from that conversation too.

Cheers,

Niall

ned14

Member

Posts: 14

(3/21/03 3:46:40 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Get real and learn some humility

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Niall, could you explain your reasoning behind your OO flawed comment. Being a relative newbie to the OO world I would find the observations of someone like you interesting.

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Sure.

My main problem with OO is mostly how it is presented. It is usually presented to novices as the pinnacle of software design that should be used wherever possible, and thus ignoring that often it is a sub-optimal method of design. Let me give you an example.

In pure OO design, everything is represented by some kind of object and the program is a set of inter-related objects. Objects are conceptualised, designed and named in human terms eg; a button, a window, a file etc. Mostly, what is to the human is also to the computer because a lot of these objects are human-convenience abstractions.

However, what is convenient to a human is often not to a computer. Inefficiencies multiply as layer upon layer of abstraction is forced against the natural way of functioning of a computer. Thus, as any CS student or teacher knows, a naive approach to OO design in purely human terms runs terribly inefficiently - often unusably so.

In fact, one could say that the experienced OO designer has learned where to depart from pure OO in order to write working code. The more experience they have, the more subtle and complex departures from "correct" OO they do. And best of all, 90% of experienced OO designers don't even realise they do this.

I prefer to look at OO as a limited tool. In many places true it is the optimal solution. In many others, a functional approach is better. In still others, one might find procedural code the best. My point is, OO is not some uber-technology - its optimal usage is much more limited and the optimal design combines OO with many other design techniques at once.

Indeed, this is why I often say you should view OO as a format for conveniently laying out your code in a maintainable fashion. I write my assembler in an OO format for maintainence and extensibility, and before I read any snide comments on this I suggest you go read my assembler before you do (look at NedHAL). It has constructors, destructors, instance data etc.

Obviously, not using a uniform OO design methodology comes with a price - mostly that other programmers get confused when working with your code. Depending on your environment, it may in people-cost terms be better to use pure OO all the way through. However, I would argue that in many projects, any newbie OO engineer will have the same problems with OO code written by a very experienced engineer - for precisely the reasons listed above.

Lastly, I'll give an example of some coursework my class had to do during my compsci degree. It was to write a program which read from one large file and spat records into three or four other files based record content. The typical class effort took between twenty and thirty seconds to complete, whereas mine took less than half a second. The difference? They used a pure absolutely correct OO design whereas I tailored mine (ie; broke purity) to how the computer actually works.

And that, in a very small nutshell, is why I think OO is flawed. Not in itself inherently, but in how it is presented, used and marketed.

Cheers,

Niall

cfcfanforlife

Regular

Posts: 17

(3/21/03 3:49:13 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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Ned perhaps your non-understanding and dislike of OO leads you to believe that it is broken. Any decent programmer will try to re-use code rather than write variations of the same code to cover every eventuallity.

I too have learnt to programme in assembler, C, C++ and Java Excel VB and being an Oracle DBA Pl/SQL, but for each language, I have changed my programming style to suit its capabilities and the result I am trying to achieve.

IMHO your views on IT and the contract industry are half formed probably from the fact that you haven't really worked in commercial IT and therefore have very limited experience of the way that companies work. The industry does evolve but like most things in life it also revolves, the current fashion being to outsource to countries that can provide cheap labour and ignore what is on your own doorstep. The unfortunate consequence of this is that in 5 - 10 years time when labour costs abroad have gone up and the standard of applications has fallen that when they look closer to home they will find that there is a skills shortage.

IT also suffers because most companies view it is an expenditure and something that they can't see provides added value which is why there is currently a downturn. No doubt once .NET takes off and people find better uses for the INTERNET and realise its full potential then the market will once again pick with the next generation of OS's and hardware.

Maybe then you will find the true worth of your Tornado tool OS or whatever it is purporting to be. The pictures I have seen so far lead me to believe it doesn't do much more than Windows Explorer.

Contracting is a way of life and it is one that you either enjoy because of its variation and uncertainty or despise for the same reasons. For me it has provided the opportunity to work in a number of different countries around the world, experience other cultures and make lots of friends and acquaintances.

ned14

Member

Posts: 15

(3/21/03 3:56:06 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Niall replies

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No of course not, nor did I ever claim I would. Obviously, there would be a steep learning curve in the first few weeks and months. I know something about this - my last employment was to write the control software for EuroFighter component testbenches (fuel and hydraulic) - and needless to say, you needed to learn a vast quantity of new stuff about how oil compresses, pumps work, jet fighters fly, properties of fuel etc. I started off by writing generic infrastructure code, and moved onto more and more specialised components with increasing knowledge.

Sure, I made some mistakes but I could rectify them easily enough because my program infrastructure was so good. In fact, the customer made at least two fundamental design changes and while costly, we only came in two months late.

If I were to go into a financial environment, I don't see how it's much different. Lots of very complex stuff needs to be learned and yes, mistakes will be made. But despite what you might think, I know my limits, I code with expectation of failure and I do not doubt that in such an environment, I would come out with a successful project.

Now as has been pointed out during this thread, there is much more to a successful contract than technically getting the job done. This was something I hadn't thought about in depth, but I thank you all for pointing it out to me.

Cheers,

Niall

Author Comment

cfcfanforlife

Regular

Posts: 18

(3/21/03 4:07:01 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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Ned you are very inconsistent nay confused in whether you have worked or not worked. Your web site quite clearly states that you are looking for your first job and that you have been lazing around since University but now all of a sudden you are the programmers programmer who has every company that you work in re-engineering all of their software so that it fits in with your ideas.

Now either I am stupid or you are not being totally honest.

Your arrogance doesn't cease to amaze me and you didn't learn anything from your conversation with Marshall Cline who quite clearly showed why OO design was useful and if used correctly satisfied most projects and problems. You have a bee in your bonnet about OO and you are absolutely convinced that your way is the best way. Whilst being a commendable trait on the one hand, it will also prove to be your downfall as it means you are very slow to learn of others as you always think that you are better than they.

trajectory

Veteran ****

Posts: 1256

(3/21/03 4:12:04 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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we only came in two months late.

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I code with expectation of failure

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You'll never land a job talking like that, especially in investment banking.

ned14

Regular

Posts: 16

(3/21/03 4:13:08 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Very Confused

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Additionally he says he has no commercial experience and on his web site he says he needs to look for his first job.

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Never said that. Actually my career path was going extremely well until I got arrested and in a matter of days, I lost everything. Since then I have taken the view there is no point hiding anything, because it just makes you vulnerable - best be public with everything and then you know you aren't hiding anything.

I started work when I left home at eighteen. I self-financed my own way through university by working.

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I very much don't think this is the case. That conversation ended because we finished the discussion, nothing more. Since then we have had further discussions, but I didn't bother making them public.

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I am not sure how this Tornado software is a new concept. XML is entirely data driven and is used extensively.

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XML is flawed because it's OO, and thus my previous explanation about the flaws in OO apply.

Furthermore, it is built on top of existing paradigms without renovating them, requires a large and complex decoding engine (already a sign of something wrong with it eg; SGML) and does nothing to prevent introduction of incompatible tags (eg; like how Netscape kept extending HTML to stop sites being compatible with anything except their browser). While it's a useful technology which certainly makes some things much easier, Tornado is a completely different beast.

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Additionally Tornado can't be described as an OS because it piggy backs off Window, LINUX and MAC.

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If you're saying this, then you don't know much about OS's. You could claim quite correctly that Java is an OS because there are machines which execute Java almost natively eg; Jazelle on the ARM - and the system need not run anything apart from the Java environment (ie; it's a computer running Java). I'm probably wrong, but I have vague memories of a "JavaOS" from someone.

While Tornado could be a self-contained OS, there's no point in it. Tornado is designed to extend your existing system, not replace it. It's designed so it acts like and works with your Windows or Mac or Linux applications.

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Other than those small points I agree with everybody else that he should have more respect for those around him and keep his personal life exactly that personal.

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My personal life is personal. You all chose to read about my personal life. I never, at any stage, said "go read my diary" - you all volunteered yourselves to do that, so if you feel uncomfortable about me, look and ask yourself why you think it's my fault for telling you about my personal life when I never did.

Cheers,

Niall

Bren586

Regular

Posts: 113

(3/21/03 4:17:50 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies Re: If you want to breed

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Well Niall if you want to work in this industry then you have to display professionalism.

Reading other peoples mail is a huge no no.

Most of contracting is about building trust. How would you feel if some one had read your email ??

Take the repeated advice and hive off your personal stuff from your "professional" stuff.

Trout Flunky

Member

Posts: 11

(3/21/03 4:30:18 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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Niall

You seem to have completely missed the whole idea of a business using a contractor.

You say :

"If I were to go into a financial environment, I don't see how it's much different. Lots of very complex stuff needs to be learned and yes, mistakes will be made. "

No no no!

The ENTIRE point of getting a contractor is that the contractor ALREAD KNOWS the "lots of very complex stuff" & NO, isn't expected to make mistakes. The fact that a number of contractors didn't know the business & got in was because the demand outstripped supply.

That is no longer the case. There's a surplus of supply, companies can be & are more picky & the contractors staying in the business are those who are able to show added value on top of their technical skills.

ned14

Regular

Posts: 17

(3/21/03 4:30:58 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Niall replies

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Now either I am stupid or you are not being totally honest.

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Where do I say this? My bio page has the wrong graduation date on it (I keep meaning to fix it, but I don't have access to my computer) but the diary is full of reams of stuff about working life. It has been running for four years.

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You are very wrong here. His advice saved me from many design pitfalls in Tornado and I am extremely grateful to him for that. I had to rewrite several thousand lines of code due to his advice, and the project is much better for it. If you'd read more of that conversation, you'd have seen that.

In conversations with him since, it has become clear I now have near-perfect OO and most of my design problems in C++ stem from limitations in C++ itself. In other words, I now consider myself as competent as anyone in the use of OO in C++ and certainly competent in the use of OO anywhere at all.

If you really feel I have learned nothing about OO, please tackle and counter my explanation of how I feel OO is flawed posted in a previous message. I surely could not be able to expertly criticise something without understanding it, so if you can counter me successfully you are proving my understanding incorrect.

I look forward to your reply.

Cheers,

Niall

sunnysan

Veteran **

Posts: 445

(3/21/03 4:32:57 pm)

Reply Flawed this flawed that....

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Niall wake up,

programming languages, standards are flawed but USABLE. As someone pointed out use the tools you have avalable and adapt your style to use the tools available.

You dont program for code purism, you program to create a product to sell to make money, if the client likes the product, and its delivered on time and its to spec it will be paid for and everybodies happy.

Contractors are paid to deliver not to question standards.

If you anylise something for long enough you will find fault with anything.

The whole f$cking world is flawed mate, take a look at BBC.co.uk and look at the fireworks George is putting on for the Iraqis, why should anything including standards and programming languages be any different.

ned14

Regular

Posts: 18

(3/21/03 4:37:57 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Niall replies Re: If you want to breed

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Reading other peoples mail is a huge no no.

Most of contracting is about building trust. How would you feel if some one had read your email ??

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Those were the actions of an immature and stupid young man like I used to be

I in later entries discussed my failings in that in detail, and I resolved to take up a more ethical standard which has been more or less successful.

You must remember I was twenty at the time. People do realise their mistakes and reform in five years!

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Take the repeated advice and hive off your personal stuff from your "professional" stuff.

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Agreed, though my CV makes no mention of my website for obvious reason.

Quite simply Bren, I noticed I have three hundred quid left as of today, and so I desperately need a job - any job. While I'd love to become a contractor, I need money for food and that must take priority.

I have however saved this entire thread for later reference. It will happen, someday.

Cheers,

Niall

MarillionFan

Veteran ****

Posts: 807

(3/21/03 4:41:17 pm)

Reply Job.

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May I suggest

Trout Flunky

Member

Posts: 12

(3/21/03 4:45:00 pm)

Reply E-mail & privacy

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Bren586 makes a good point.

Bad enough you were quite happy to routinely execute a breach of trust but the fact you attempted & even partially managed to justify your actions to yourself, IMO, makes you completely unsuitable to work in any area requiring any degree of trust.

Sorry mate, but I, after reading what's on your site, would not give you a job.

ned14

Regular

Posts: 19

(3/21/03 6:07:14 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: E-mail & privacy

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You obviously didn't actually read the circumstances of me doing that and just inferred from posts in here. It was not in the context of work, it was actually involving my ex-fiancee of the time. It was a stupid, thoughtless mistake which caused great hurt and I have since apologised to her for it, which she accepted and we parted as friends. That in my view is an issue between me and her, and has nothing to do with anyone else.

We all make mistakes - yes, even you experienced contractors who say you don't. No one is infallable and no matter how much experience everyone still makes mistakes. It would seem the big difference between me and others in here is that I recognise that I will make mistakes, and code for that inevitability. I am even honest and say I will make mistakes from the outset, though I recognise many clients will bin you in a second for doing so.

You can call me arrogant if you want. I would say arrogance is implying you are faultless and always will be.

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Sorry mate, but I, after reading what's on your site, would not give you a job.

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Your choice. I would suggest you look into things in more depth, decide if you would prefer to believe in some dream world where everything is a fascade and lack of realism causes project failure.

I really must wonder if the shoddy reputation of the IT profession is down to the lies which would appear to be regularly spun by so called "professionals". The ability to recognise ones faults is the key to growth and success, and while I'm not good at doing so I try my best. For example, my CV has been radically reformed thanks to feedback from my article and direct help from commentators by email - plus as always throughout my life, I am constantly taking on board the views of others in that ever on-going process.

My site is my history; mistakes are easy to single out and assume I have not corrected them when obviously if I wrote them down in the first place, I must already have realised their existence and thus begun the process of change.

Anyway, I now have enough material for another article about contracting, so you can all look joyously forward to reading it!

Cheers,

Niall

ned14

Regular

Posts: 20

(3/21/03 6:18:27 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Flawed this flawed that....

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programming languages, standards are flawed but USABLE. As someone pointed out use the tools you have avalable and adapt your style to use the tools available.

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With respect, if that were the case we'd all still be programming in assembler. The fact we aren't indicates there is a constant evolution in tools which results in better and more powerful tools and applications.

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Contractors are paid to deliver not to question standards.

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That is something I have learned here. It saddens me

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Call it naivity if you want, but I believe in the possibility of change. I'm obviously not alone if millions of people are willing to take to the streets in protest. The Iraq war was inevitable, but its outcome is not. If everyone resisting together can make that war expensive enough for the Americans, their imperialist desires will be reigned in and the post-capitalist evolution which has waited so long may finally arrive.

In the above, I have just said lots of things which require major backup eg; the proof of the unsustainability of capitalism in its present form. The books by Fritjof Capra (which I review on my website) give researched and referenced evidence for that, and he does it far better than I can (though Marx will take you a fair way). As for US imperialist desires, see Project For a New American Century at www.newamericancentury.or...eports.htm

Cheers,

Niall

AliMcLeod

Regular

Posts: 46

(3/21/03 7:13:41 pm)

Reply Re: Get real and learn some humility

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Niall, did the assignment say the results should be produced as quick as possible? If not, why did you do it. You spent extra time thinking about and implementing an unnecessary feature.

Its more likely you managed to produce less readable, and therefore less maintainable, code in tailoring your code to how the computer works.

Take this into industry and you'll be spending your clients money implementing features they do not want, but you happen to think it'd be "cool" to do. You'll be wasting their money, both in the up-front development costs (through the extended time you take) and down the line in maintenance.

For me, the above sums up your problem - you congratulate yourself for doing something that only you find impressive, but seem to be shocked to find out that others don't hold the same view.

I still don't think you've explained why you think OO is flawed. Perhaps your understanding of OO is flawed?

Trout Flunky

Member

Posts: 13

(3/21/03 8:46:34 pm)

Reply Re: E-mail & privacy

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Niall

"You obviously didn't actually read the circumstances of me doing that and just inferred from posts in here. It was not in the context of work, it was actually involving my ex-fiancee of the time."

Obviously nothing, small hint was where I put "after reading what's on your site". You even quote it in your response! I read the circumstances before I posted & stand by my opinion (hey, it's just my opinion that peoples attitude in their private lives will be reflected in their proffessional lives, you don't have to like it & if it's a private matter & nothing to do with anyone else then putting on the web for eveyone to read & form opinions about you was probably a mistake)

I didn't say experienced contractors DON'T make mistakes, I said they're not EXPECTED to make make mistakes. Big difference. Yes, I make mistakes & so does everyone else, but I don't go in expecting to make them. I aim to produce something with zero defects, completely unachievable certainly, but that isn't going to stop me trying

I don't quite understand where you form the idea I'm living in a dream world with a trail of failed projects littering the path behind me, that's quite a statement to make with absolutely nothing to back it up. You are very quick to make assumptions & assertions based on zero knowledge. I at least formed my opinion of you on your own words.

Put more thought into your next article & maybe it will be worth reading. If your last one had read different you wouldn't have got a fraction of the flak that's been aimed at you.

bassuk

Regular

Posts: 103

(3/21/03 10:13:33 pm)

Reply i dont @#%$ know any title

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"Sure, you all view me as arrogant because I come along and say all these things which aren't usually said. "

Yes but the point is you *arnt* the first to have said them. Every newbie c++ programmer on the planet just about has asked half those questions you asked Cline - the difference is the rest of us havnt made a song and dance about it, and havnt pestered industry personalities with our half baked thoeries - weve done our research and founf out why things are done the way they are.

Paul C.

MarillionFan

Veteran ****

Posts: 812

(3/21/03 11:27:50 pm)

Reply My Last Post on the Subject

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Niall.

You have proven without a doubt you are a thinker, a philospher of life and you question everything. Fine. Nothing wrong with that.

In my opinion, you are now on the wrong site. You are neither qualified or cogniscent enough to discuss contracting. Contracting is about business. Something you have shown, time after time after time you have no real understanding about.

You also show a real lack of empathy or social skills with anyone. The questions 'what planet are you on?', 'what are you talking about?' must have been said to you for years now. You think your misunderstood?

You think your different?

You think everyone else is wrong?

I'm sorry. Thats not the case. The line someone said to you was 'Stan I think you have some issues'. Sadly it's true.

These boards should not become some sort of counselling sessions for you. We are not that interested. We are interested in the world of commerce and how best to use are skills to guide us through that world. Most of us worship Mammon, you appear to worship Onan!

I suggest you stick to the technical thread or C++ threads where you may receive the praise and recognition you so desperately require.

You will not be accepted here I am afraid to say.

Vetran

Veteran ***

Posts: 513

(3/21/03 11:45:37 pm)

Reply would you like fries with that?

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Sorry I can't help it!

jacko

Veteran ****

Posts: 840

(3/22/03 2:44:09 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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You have a cousin called Stephen Rees.

I claim my £5 and luncheon voucher.

McBainCo

Veteran ***

Posts: 529

(3/22/03 5:27:25 pm)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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Jacko,

How is CH?

Are you in Geneva or Lausanne?

Did you fly with EasyJet?

jacko

Veteran ****

Posts: 841

(3/23/03 10:37:00 am)

Reply Re: Niall replies

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Hiya McBainCo,

I'm in Montreux (or will be in a few hours time.....) for this project.

And yes, I am flying Easyjet - not only cheaper than other carriers but they fly from my regional airport.

They fly mid afternoon, which is nice and since I work on results and output rather than hours nobody minds if I leave early on Friday.

Couldn't cope with 'work,eat,sleep, travel, work, eat, sleep...etc' so come home every other weekend.

Author Comment

oaksoft

Full Member

Posts: 176

(3/23/03 11:29:41 am)

Reply OO is broken

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At last! A post in this entire thread which is actually worth responding to.

In actual fact what you say about OO is largely how I see things.

OO is a tool - pure and simple.

It is not the only tool.

Neither is it always the best tool.

It's not "broken" though.

What is broken is the blind application of it to EVERY situation. This is what I call extremist blindfolding. You see it with Linux user where there is an absolute refusal to contemplate that ANYTHING could possibly be better.

You appear to allude to that thought process in your post.

This is exactly 100% the sort of analysis I would be looking for from a job applicant and is a prerequesite for getting to stage 2 of the interview.

What then is interesting is to allow the applicant to establish the following:-

1)What other tools are there.

2)How would you use each one.

and most importantly,

3)When would you NOT use each tool.

Experience is vital to this and sorts the academics from the practictioners.

I obviously cannot comment about your level of experience because I have not worked with you HOWEVER I will say that experience is NOT absolutely NOT about how many years you have behind you.

It is about what you have "experienced" during those years.

I have seen engineers with 25 years experience who are utterly hopeless.

Conversely, the best engineer I have ever had the pleasure of working with has 7 years.

His desk is always queued with more time experienced guys asking him questions.

The fact is that he can talk about almost anything from Linux apps to Data Storage networks and everything in between.

He is simply exceptional but will inevitably make the odd mistake (as with anyone).

He gains respect by learning from those mistakes and making excellent corrections.

Now you may well be one of those genuises.

but a series of 20-odd posts will not enlighten us one way or the other.

Interestingly, your character is getting in the way of what you say rendering your sometimes decent arguments worthless. Others seem to have problems laughing off the silly veneer and trying to really analyse what you say.

I'd be interested to hear other opinions about why you think OO is broken.

So far I appear to be the only one.

bassuk

Regular

Posts: 105

(3/23/03 11:54:06 am)

Reply OO etc

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OO is just A-N-Other way to organise information and as such is going to more suitable for some problems , even some parts of problems, than others. Furthermore any multi-dimensional structuring technique (such as OO) isnt going to map effeciently in all cases onto a one-dimensional computing machine.

This patently obvious to anyone with half a brain and yet "old" Nially here expects a nobel prize this earth shattering thoery.

Paul C.

ned14

Regular

Posts: 21

(3/23/03 4:59:39 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Get real and learn some humility

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Niall, did the assignment say the results should be produced as quick as possible? If not, why did you do it. You spent extra time thinking about and implementing an unnecessary feature.

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That wasn't my point - my point was that a pure OO design is inefficient, whereas an experienced OO design is not.

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For me, the above sums up your problem - you congratulate yourself for doing something that only you find impressive, but seem to be shocked to find out that others don't hold the same view.

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In my relationship with clients, I always establish a fine-grained consultation approach. They tell me what they want to do, and I propose a solution with a cost-benefit analysis. They then choose based on that, or suggest their own solutions etc. and we arrive at an agreement.

This dialogue continues during the project reflecting the dynamic nature of finding the optimal solution for both client and implementation.

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I still don't think you've explained why you think OO is flawed. Perhaps your understanding of OO is flawed?

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Please state where you don't understand my explanation?

Perhaps you already view my position as being absolutely correct and thus can't see the point I'm making? My point is that there is a myriad of approaches and instead of us trying to impose one over all others (eg; MS .NET, Corba) we should be aiming for a truly agnostic method of joining bits of code together. Tornado is my version of that agnostic approach, where solutions written with any variety of approaches work equally hand-in-hand with one another.

I can't accept for one minute that the world is the way it is and just get with it. If we all agree that something can be improved, then why the hell do we not just put our deeds to our words and make it better?

Cheers,

Niall

ned14

Regular

Posts: 22

(3/23/03 5:11:49 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: E-mail & privacy

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Firstly, my apologies for saying you had not read the context of that email-reading issue. I had assumed you meant "reading what's on your site" as general site-reading and not the specific case.

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I read the circumstances before I posted & stand by my opinion (hey, it's just my opinion that peoples attitude in their private lives will be reflected in their proffessional lives, you don't have to like it & if it's a private matter & nothing to do with anyone else then putting on the web for eveyone to read & form opinions about you was probably a mistake)

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Do you not accept the potential for penitence and change for the better in all human beings?

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And it is precisely my point that contractors are expected to be perfect which is hurting the industry. A further point is that contractors (and permies) don't challenge that view as rocking the boat incur risk upon them. If IT professionals won't take the risk of indicating their are fallible from the outset, we must accept the full blame for the failing IT industry, its poor reputation and the future loss of all our jobs.

One thing you can say about oursourcing to India is that the outsourcers expect the code quality to be lower (in my experience). Thus they don't get unrealistic expectations, and dare I say it everyone is better off except non-Indian IT workers.

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Jesus, I wasn't talking about you personally! It was clearly obvious in those sections that I was speaking to the board and about the industry in general.

Cheers,

Niall

ned14

Regular

Posts: 23

(3/23/03 5:23:01 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: OO is broken

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Firstly, I'm glad having looked at the other posts in here saying I'm right about OO's faults including yours. We're making progress.

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Now you may well be one of those genuises.

but a series of 20-odd posts will not enlighten us one way or the other.

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My aim (though some in here will not believe me) was not to prove myself better than others or a genius of some kind (quite frankly, I don't care what others think - though I do care in their opinions on how I can improve). The main thrust was (a) to defend slander against my person (b) expand on the points that I have made and (c) raise some issues for thought for contractors and IT in general. Fine, some may think me wrong, but at least think about them, discuss and we can all advance our understanding of things.

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I do try my best to be clear. It's something I have a difficulty with and I am always open to people asking questions where I am not being clear in order that (a) I realise where I've been misunderstood so I can try better next time and (b) becoming clear in what I'm saying themselves.

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I'd be interested to hear other opinions about why you think OO is broken.

So far I appear to be the only one.

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I made some further points in a previous post here. If you agree about OO being misused as you seem to, do you then agree that my idea for a solution is the correct one?

Cheers,

Niall

xoggoth

Veteran *****

Posts: 1917

(3/23/03 5:25:33 pm)

Reply Re: E-mail & privacy

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Skimming through some the above, one comment. I thought programming was a job not a philosophy.

Edited by: xoggoth at: 3/23/03 5:28:32 pm

AliMcLeod

Regular

Posts: 49

(3/23/03 5:39:28 pm)

Reply Re: Get real and learn some humility

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That wasn't my point - my point was that a pure OO design is inefficient, whereas an experienced OO design is not.

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So, it seems you've changed your tact from OO is flawed to bad OO is flawed? Whether its pure or not, an OO design that does not fit the requirements is bad.

Well, its hardly revolutionary, is it. Yes, bad design is produced by bad designers. Don't blame the tools - you are right that that's all it is, and a designer with that single tool in their toolbox is destined to be part of failed projects.

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This dialogue continues during the project reflecting the the dynamic nature of finding the optimal solution for both client and implementation.

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Have you looked at agile development methodologies such as Extreme Programming? There is quite a close correlation with the above in many aspects of the methodologies.

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Tornado is my version of that agnostic approach, where solutions written with any variety of approaches work equally hand-in-hand with one another.

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But there are already such agnostic approaches, embraced by industry giants, not two developers with little experience "in-the-field" in their back-bedrooms. eg. Web services, and that other over hyped "technology", XML, even though XML is just an text file (I let it pass when you said XML was OO - thats what led me to asking whether you understood OO).

Tornado - its a layer on top of existing operating systems. Is X Windows an operating system, or are any of the other Linux windows managers? Was Windows 3 an operating system, or a dos program?

From the info I've read, Tornado is not an operating system, its an application running on an operating system and it will contain the inherant faults in those operating systems unless you hard-wire them out.

How do you, for example, intend to cope with Microsofts myriad of patches?

I can state with 100% confidence that, as a project, one for which you wish to raise finance, one you wish to aim at a tiny market - you've alread said its for technical minded people only, which preculdes around 99% (guess) of those who currently use windows - Tornado will fail.

Its not going to work, but it sounds like it'll be a nice home project for you, albeit one that will (and has, given that you're on attempt three) take up a lot of your time. I just hope you're not pinning your future on something that is doomed to be nothing more than something you and your mates (I'm presuming they do exist) play with.

Good luck; it could be the kind of project that helps you with a career.

ned14

Regular

Posts: 24

(3/23/03 7:17:32 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Get real and learn some humility

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So, it seems you've changed your tact from OO is flawed to bad OO is flawed? Whether its pure or not, an OO design that does not fit the requirements is bad.

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Remember when I said I often don't make myself clear?

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Have you looked at agile development methodologies such as Extreme Programming? There is quite a close correlation with the above in many aspects of the methodologies.

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Yeah I was told about agile programming about a year ago when someone said my methods were similar. I personally have never seen many of extreme programming's ideas (eg; pair programming) in action so I can't offer an opinion other than that they're interesting and merit further study.

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If there's any industry with the capacity for a single guy to change the world, it's IT. It'll lessen with maturity, but it still happens.

I don't know much about web services, but I still hold that XML uses an OO approach. To work with XML, you use a DOM and it's most certainly OO in every implementation I've seen. It also has all the problems I've mentioned in previous posts, and I don't see it being the technology to link disperate code together. Why? Further problems I see is its text-based format (unsuitable for high-performance areas), lack of flexibility in encoding (much more code needed, inefficient, can have difficulty encoding exotic formats) and lack of power in the model itself (it could do with being programmable ie; scripting).

If I could just convey what it's like to work on a Tornado system ... it's like having your eyes opened, realising that all those things which took forever or were impossible on your current system can now be done with one or two operations. It's like sheer power under your fingertips, the difference between a BMW and a morris minor. I'm beginning to eulogise - sorry - and there's no help to anyone in me doing it, so I'll stop.

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Tornado - its a layer on top of existing operating systems. Is X Windows an operating system, or are any of the other Linux windows managers? Was Windows 3 an operating system, or a dos program?

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I would define it as an operating system when client code knows nothing of the environment outside that system. So X wouldn't be as programs still can call the kernel - Windows 3 could be an OS as you can write most programs without leaving the Windows API - and indeed the same programs running under NT emulate the DOS stuff but pass the WinAPI through a thunk. I'd say Windows 3 could be called either way.

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Precisely, no disagreement there. I have taken some measures to cover over the glaring problems (eg; lack of a decent security system), but ultimately there's only so much you can do. I got rid of viruses in Tornado because they can't spread (uses a ACL/capability hybrid - see www.eros-os.org/essays/capintro.html) but a Win32 virus could still spread by infecting a Tornado executable. Tornado viruses nearly can't exist.

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How do you, for example, intend to cope with Microsofts myriad of patches?

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Not my problem. If the Tornado user chose a Mac, they'd have a different set of patches to apply

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One major failing with regard to all computer use is the lack of training. Thus so many workers sit and prod their computers to about 5% of their capacity to help them be more productive.

I don't make claims that you won't need training for my system. Such claims damage everyone eg; Microsoft gets a crap reputation because so many people get frustrated with their products because they don't know how they work - now if Microsoft ensured everyone got trained adaquately, their rep would vastly improve.

At least in the days of IBM, everyone accepted the need for training users. MS made bucket loads with a lie to the contrary, and hence we all are where we are.

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Oh it does work, and someday even with only my free time work going into it it'll become ready for sale. One way or another I'm going to bring it to this world!

Cheers,

Niall

oaksoft

Full Member

Posts: 177

(3/23/03 8:09:13 pm)

Reply Niall

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Niall,

I can't find the relevant post on your suggestion for a solution to the problems of OO.

Can you create a thread in the technical forum and I'll pick it up there.

Unfortunately, this thread has focussed heavily on your personality and not the details of your proposal and the interesting stuff is being swamped.

AliMcLeod

Regular

Posts: 50

(3/23/03 9:41:32 pm)

Reply Re: Get real and learn some humility

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Hi Niall,

Once again you're assuming your view of the world is the view of the world.

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I don't know much about web services, but I still hold that XML uses an OO approach. To work with XML, you use a DOM and it's most certainly OO in every implementation I've seen.

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You've moved the goalposts again. Now you're not saying that XML is OO, but that XML processing is OO, and then assume that DOM is the only XML processing available.

Have you heard of SAX (Simple API for XML) processing? Its an event-based model, rather than an object based one.

(in response to "what about Windows patches"):

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Not my problem. If the Tornado user chose a Mac, they'd have a different set of patches to apply

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I can't let you off that easy. You propose that you have an operating system that will revolutionise the computing world, and when someone raises something that throws a HUGE spanner in the works, you smiley it off with "not my problem". If you want you get finance for your product, you'd better start thinking of answers to these questions.

I think its time you accept that you're a technologist, not a entrepreneur. You are trying to find a market to fit a technology, rather than using technology to fill a gap in the market.

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Oh it does work, and someday even with only my free time work going into it it'll become ready for sale.

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When I said it wouldn't work, I meant the product as a feasible business product, not as a technology.

As for it being ready for sale - anything can be ready for sale - come back and tell us when its actually selling.

Trout Flunky

Member

Posts: 14

(3/24/03 10:13:44 am)

Reply Re: E-mail & privacy

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Niall

"Firstly, my apologies"

No problem.

"Do you not accept the potential for penitence and change for the better in all human beings?"

Only to a limited degree. A thief may turn a new leaf & stop stealing, but I believe the underlying lack of respect for other peoples property remains.

We obviously have very different ideas of what a contractor should be. I believe that ideally contractors should already know their stuff & be experienced in it's application in the environment. It's like accountants. You expect your accountant not only to know the theory but also to have the experience & ability to immediately produce benefit to you & to keep up to date himself. Using last years allowances when calculating your PAYE contributions would not be acceptable. I don't expect to pay for my accountant to keep himself up to date, that's his problem. That's on an individual basis.

For permies, there is & always has been a problem with companies not investing in their staff properly. This was probably one of the big contributing factors to the rise of independant contractors in this country. This doesn't just affect IT, it's something that seems to be endemic to the UK. I think it goes something like this.

'Our staff are not performing well enough but they're cheap. We could train them which would improve productivity but then that costs & they may leave for higher wages. We could increase their wages but then that would push up our costs. We want to keep costs down therefore we shouldn't train them. Our staff are not performing well enough etc etc.'

As for outsourcing to foreign parts, I think this is a house of cards for many companies & I have seen a number of cases where the service to the business has fallen through the floor. It may be cheaper, but it requires much more & quite frankly much better than average management. Now Indian companies are themselves looking to outsource to China. It will be an interesting day when a major project is going in & the development team come over for the implementation & they're a bunch of chinese who only speak punjabi!

"Jesus, I wasn't talking about you personally! It was clearly obvious in those sections that I was speaking to the board and about the industry in general."

No need to blaspheme. It wasn't obvious. In fact it very much looked like a reply, to me, to a section of my previous post. In no way does it look like you were speaking to the forum!

"Your choice. I would suggest you look into things in more depth, decide if you would prefer to believe in some dream world where everything is a fascade and lack of realism causes project failure."

Just exactly in this paragraph is an indication of a change of context?

ned14

Regular

Posts: 26

(3/24/03 4:49:09 pm)

Reply | Edit Re: Get real and learn some humility

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Once again you're assuming your view of the world is the view of the world.

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I think that's a little harsh - obviously my view is just as subjective as anyone else's. I have always had difficulty understanding other viewpoints of the world, which is why I have people explain theirs to me so I can understand.

Anyone can disagree with my view. However, unless you explain your reasoning, you must accept that I'm unlikely to change my view just because someone older and wiser says so. And due to a character fault in me, I'll tend to fight the view of wisdom if I think it's wrong.

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I don't know much about web services, but I still hold that XML uses an OO approach. To work with XML, you use a DOM and it's most certainly OO in every implementation I've seen.

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You've moved the goalposts again. Now you're not saying that XML is OO, but that XML processing is OO, and then assume that DOM is the only XML processing available.

Have you heard of SAX (Simple API for XML) processing? Its an event-based model, rather than an object based one.

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I must confess you have made a very good point - no I didn't know about SAX (do now), and furthermore hadn't considered an event-based parsing approach.

Raw XML itself is tree based marked up textualised data - this I always knew. However, I must admit I had never properly separated the DOM from the XML in my head so in fact, my statement that XML is OO was in fact wrong.

However, this does not negate any of my previous points regarding it. It has many good uses, but it sure isn't the pipedream as promised by so many and I personally think its future role will be useful but limited.

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Not my problem. If the Tornado user chose a Mac, they'd have a different set of patches to apply

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I can't let you off that easy. You propose that you have an operating system that will revolutionise the computing world, and when someone raises something that throws a HUGE spanner in the works, you smiley it off with "not my problem". If you want you get finance for your product, you'd better start thinking of answers to these questions.

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I'm afraid I don't understand. A system running Tornado and a system without require exactly the same amount of maintainence. I don't claim a cure-all to all the ills of the computing world by any means, but I do claim that it will make your computing experience much more productive.

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I think its time you accept that you're a technologist, not a entrepreneur. You are trying to find a market to fit a technology, rather than using technology to fill a gap in the market.

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I disagree. There is a massive gap, it's just no one has realised yet.

Furthermore, you are right in that I'm not a fantastic businessman. I do believe that I am an adequate one though - this said, I'd quite happily hand over the reins to someone who was clearly better than I if the chance arose.

Cheers,

Niall

DodgyAgent

Veteran ****

Posts: 1143

(3/24/03 4:53:33 pm)

Reply shut up

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Will you please just shut up. What do you think this board is? Some sort of technicians technical forum?

It is not, we are having a very grown up debate about the war (shut up Milan!) and all you can do is talk about Seas objects and effing plusses.

Stop interrupting!

AliMcLeod

Regular

Posts: 51

(3/24/03 5:10:04 pm)

Reply Re: shut up

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Stop interrupting!

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Shouldn't you be trying to find Niall a job, or something?

Bren586

Regular

Posts: 117

(3/24/03 5:12:42 pm)

Reply Re: shut up

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He is just miffed that he missed the original thread and could not enter "fish, shotgun, barrel" mode